Last time, I responded to a quote and outlined three problems I had with the ideas behind it. Here is the quote again:
"As long as I am doing what is right, nobody has the right to judge me. What is accountable to some Christians is of no consequence to others. I have had Christians lambast me for not attending church each and every week. Scripture "tells" them that I should be doing so. God tells me another. You have to listen to God as he speaks to you. One should never assume to discern how God speaks to each of us. This indeed, if we are being faithful and doing well in Gods eyes. In as much, judging others for how God spoke to them is blasphemy. Indeed, a human is but a human."
Here are the problems again as I see them.
1) "Nobody has a right to judge me."
2) "Scripture "tells" them that I should be doing so. God tells me another. You have to listen to God as He speaks to you."
3) "...judging others for how God spoke to them is blasphemy."
I will be dealing with #2 today. There are a few points I want to make about this idea about God seemingly contradicting Himself by the way He "speaks" to us.
A) Will God contradict His revealed Word?
B) How should we read the Bible (Personal messages or author-intended message)?
C) The Body of Christ needs all its members (arms, legs, head, body...etc).
First off, Will God contradict His written Word? Short answer. No. Longer answer...We must respect the revelation of God's Word. Here is the longer version of Respecting the Revelation.
"If you think God is telling you something through Scripture that is
not connected to the meaning of the words in their context, it can't be of God because God chose to communicate through language, not around it. "
Stand to Reason also has these articles dealing more fully with the topic of getting personal messages from God. Here: Revelation or "Inspiration", Hearing God's Voice, and Acts and the Voice of God. In addition, there is a great tape series about Decision Making and the Will of God (here or here).
Secondly, when we read the Bible, folks, it is important that we not consider it a "living" document as has been done with the Constitution (thus allowing folks to read (or interpret) whatever they like into it-though, admittedly, there are times of reasonable dispute). We must to understand the context, understand what the author's intention and who their audience was to be able to then have the Holy Spirit illuminate what is actually in the text.
Now, this is a little different than finding ways to apply God's Word to our lives. We cannot just take any old verse (Read Never Read a Bible Verse) and interpret whatever we like into it. We must read to understand what the words say and go from there. True, it is not as romantic (or "spiritual")- getting a word from God vs. careful Bible study, but it is what we must do. That is, study the Word. If we wish to mature in our Christian walk.
Finally, in relation to going to church: the Bible seems clear that the Body of Christ (that is, all believers) need other believers to grow, to encourage, to rebuke, to correct, to exhort, to be challenged (iron sharpens iron), and more. If you choose not to go to church because of past hurts or grievances against pastors (or other Christians), or you are just uncomfortable with going it is best to come right out and say it and deal with those isses on their own.
I don't think they are good reasons for not going at all. Also, I do not think we will hear messages from God saying something contrary to what Scripture says. I could be wrong, but I think the Bible is clear that we cannot be Lone Ranger Christians, and I think the benefit of going to a God-honoring, Bible-believing church is part of our responsibility as a believer. For our sake and for others to benefit from each other.
I don't think it is a matter of going "each and every Sunday" (and I don't think the Scripture explicitly teaches that-though some could argue that way), but we are to "regularly meet with other believers over Word and Sacrament" (as a friend puts it). If God is clear in Scripture that we are to meet regularly, I am convinced that God will not turn around five minutes later and tell someone else something contradictory to His Scriptures.
Sometimes we may need to take a Sabbatical, of sorts, to reevaluate why we are going to church and to get refreshed from Churchianity, and refocus on our Christianty, but even then, it is important to meet with other believers. Especially in person. My temptation is to simply use this blog, and others I visit, as my "church", but I think that would be a mistake as well.
To wrap this up, I think there can be valid instances, or reasons for not attending church once in a while, or for a season. However, my main concern with this idea that we can get messages from God that are, or seem, contrary to the written Word is more troubling.
Can God speak to us supernaturally? Absolutely. Is it normal? No, I don't think Scripture supports this idea. If it dose happen, it will be clear-there will be no question who is talking (God, myself, the Devil). Will it be a message that is contrary to the Bible? No. Folks, this is how cults are formed. We may not be able to assume how God can or does speak to an individual, but we are called to test what is being said with consideration for what the Scripture teaches. We must be good Bereans. (Acts 17:11)
Is this an essential (to our salvation)of the Christian life? Yes and no. No, because I think God can speak to us, supernaturally and/or individually. Yes, because I don't think He always does the way we think He does. Also, whatever we think is from from God will align with Scripture. Whatever we experience must be viewed through the lense of Scripture. He will never contradict Himself. Our job is to search for truth and renew our minds as we see what is true as we learn more about Him.
I may not be expressing myself entirely clear on this point, but I am convinced about the idea of hearing from God and the danger of making that claim. Folks, if you think I am wrong or would like to clarify a thought on this let me know.
Derrick
12 comments:
Derrick, this was well written. You certainly do research in an admirable way. I watch TBN quite a bit. What you wrote in Part #2 has me thinking. Many times during the broadcast, different guests or even the host will say something that " God Revealed To Them". Many times it is said in terms of " God Spoke To Me In A Word Of Knowledge". This happens very frequently, even from different television shows from different venues. I sometimes find it difficult to accept as certain fact. I have also experienced this in church. A Pastor may say that something was revealed to him as words from God. It may not be connected to a specific scripture or passage. How do you see such things? I appreciate your research and quality of response.
I agree that the idea of "hearing from God" is somewhat abused in Christianity. I know that I used to abuse it. Using that and similar phrases helps one to feel more spiritual at times, and usually no one challenges it at all. However, there is a real danger in presenting information that one "heard from God." Even if there is no specific scripture on what it is the person "heard", there is a scriptural way to bring up those concerns to others. Or sometimes it might be helpful to run it by other Chrisitians in order to help solidify how it lines up with the bible.
I suppose it may also be connected to where one attends a Sunday Service. As a brand new Christian, my good friend John ( also a brand new Christian)and I attended Walnut Valley Christian Chapel. This was a very spirit filled church,and very much evangelical. During our second Sunday visit, much of the congregation started speaking in tongues. The next Sunday, the same. John and I looked around and discovered that we were quite the minority, not having this gift. I was ( and am ) in no position to question what was happening, but John and I certainly felt out of place. It was like, Gee, how come God didn't allow me this gift as well? Again, we were brand new Christians. We were not "hearing from God" like the rest of the congregation. Interesting.
Russ, Thanks for your post and kind words.
I agree with Tracy's comments about bringing up the concerns (of what someone has claimed to receive from God) to another believer.
Russ, with regard to your first post, I would add that TBN is not usually the best place to get a balanced look at a mature Christian life. Hank Hanagraff, the Bible answer man http://www.equip.org, has written a great book, called Christianity in Crisis http://www.equip.org/store/details.asp?SKU=B400 dealing with many of the folks at TBN and their claims; particularly as it applies to the Word Faith idea, but also their claims that you CANNOT question them, in any way, because they have heard from God. It has been a few years since I read a few portions of the book, but well worth the time if your have it.
With regard to your second post, this has been a common problem in the charasmatic/pentecostal type churches [evangelical, I think would be a different distinction-though perhaps not in this case].
Anyway, I think speaking in tongues is a slightly different issue than "hearing from God". But I will briefly address it since it seems to have been a negative church experience.
1 Corinthians 12-15 deals with this. The basic idea seems to be 1)we all have different gifts in the Body, 2) speaking in tongues is one of them, 3)In a congregational setting, there should not be tongues without interpretation precisly for the reason you give-it causes confusion and does not edify the people on the "outside.
Also, if you were a Christian at the time, you were and are in a position to question what was happening. Paul is clear that worship services need to be done in an orderly manner. Otherwise the Body is not edified.
I can imagine you felt out of place. That is quite understandable. I believe that tongues has their place in the life of the Church. I do not think that everyone can or will have this gift (as some charasmatic churches teach).
While the difference may seem slight, I think this is different than the teaching of hearing the voice of God, though they may be related. We are not taught anywhere in Scripture that to have fruitful, productive and mature Christian lives we must hear personal messages from God to help direct our lives. He has given us His written Word that we must study and determine what God is teaching us that we may grow and worship in Spirit and Truth.
Here is another great link to the A-Team Blog dealing with the issue of reading the Bible for all it is worth and not misiniterpreting it by reading into it things that were not meant to be read into it. http://ateam.blogware.com/blog/_archives/2006/7/5/2087257.html
Hope that helps a little.
Derrick
Derrick,
I have just gotten two books to study on ( really :-) One is titled "Discipline, The Glad Surrender. It was written by Elisabeth Elliot. The second book is a wonderful read. it is titled "15 Minutes Alone With God, for men". It is written by Bob Barnes. This, along with the areas you were so kind to pass along to me to read, will be quite helpful. Have a wonderful day! And, Thank You..
Speaking of the gift of tongues, 3 URLs:
1) "LINGUIST List 6.385: Speaking in tongues"
http://www.linguistlist.org/issues/6/6-385.html
2) "Glossolalia - Wikipedia"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossolalia
3) "The Charismatic Movement and Lutheran Theology"
http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/
wittenberg/mosynod/web/chmat-01.html
90% of what passes for manifestations of the gift of tongues today is probably anything but a spiritual gift from on high. And more could have been said in these articles too.
Ya, the gift of tongues thing is pretty sticky. I grew up in a church where many people spoke in tongues, and often. I was always told to pray for this gift and I will get it when the Holy Spirit comes into me. I prayed and prayed....and have yet to receive this gift. (However, I do believe that the Holy Spirit has come into me) A time or two, I was tempted to try and fake it just to be part of that. But, I never did because I knew that wasn't the purpose. This is, again, one of those things that people aren't "allowed" to question. There have been numerous people in my experiences that I just know were faking their speaking in tongues. However, since this is a special language between one person and God, so I was told, how could I question it? The bible seems clear that if one is given the gift of tongues, another will be given the gift of interpretation to help edify the church. So, what about the majority of the time when interpretation is not included? Like Kwame said, "90% of what passes for manifestations of the gift of tongues is probably anything but a spiritual gift from on high." I think it is sad how tongues is misused.
Tracy,
I agree that one can feel "lesser than" as a new Christian, when many people around you at a service are speaking in tongues and you are not. My buddy John and I felt exactly that way in June of 1979. We felt slighted, not as "blessed", and had the feeling that we were not as worthy as the others in this congregation. Again, we were brand new baby Christians at the time. One of these folks of the congregation worked with me at Rockwell. He had a lovely wife, three fine little chiuldren and what I looked up to as a fine example of what I wanted my family to be like. At the time I had one infant daughter, a wife who was a wonderful person yet not a believer, and great promise for the future. I indeed felt not as blessed as my Rockwell buddy, because he had these amazing gifts from The Lord. I did the right thing. I prayed about it. Low and behold, a worldly "SHOCK" was presented to me. My "blessed" friend at Rockwell had lunch one day at a place I also frequented at times for lunch. I then understood quite a bit more about tongues. He was not speaking in tongues. That would have been difficult for him at the time since his tongue was wrapped around his cute female coworker's tongue in the parking lot. All of a sudden, I "got it". He was living a lie. I was the one who was truly blessed and had been given the gift of family, dedication to such, and the promise of Jesus Christ. Our gifts from The Lord are bountiful. We only need to look around a bit and be thankful for them.
My prededing comment was based on a time period beginning on June 4th, 1979 and ending in the summer of 1980. John and myself worked at an offshore oil rig fluid transfer manufacturer in 1979. I was hired at Rockwell in early 1980.
It is very sad that so many christians fall into that type of sin. I think your example is probably one of many. This man you speak of still could have been speaking in tongues in church, although it would seem unlikely considering his personal life. I believe in the gift of tongues. I am certain that it has existed and still exists (but to a far lesser degree). I also think that the church as a whole struggles with people like that man. They come to church and act like a saint, and act worldly when they leave church. It is an issue of integrity. On the other hand, we are all sinners. That is the bottom line. And, I think you hit the nail on the head when you spoke of the promise of Jesus Christ. Fortunately for all of us, we have all been given the promise of Jesus Christ with the bonus gifts of forgiveness and life in Heaven. The same goes for the guy in your example. However, there are conditions, which this guy is not meeting. Do you know if there was anyone in the church that tried to help keep this guy accountable? Or did everyone just go about minding their own business?
To take this in a slightly different direction, I would add that we cannot base our own level of spirituality by comparing ourselves to other humans. We fail, and see others fail. I remember one thing often talked about in A.A.-type meetings: We can always find others worse than ourselves-to justify our own problems
We tell ourselves: At least I am not as bad as that guy, so I must be doing pretty good...Problem is when we compare ourselves to the standard of perfection, who is God, and we find our good deeds are considered as clean as menstrual cloths.
I know I am not as good as I think I am when compared to Jesus. That is hard to take.
D.
Test
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