"Stuffed deer heads on walls are bad enough, but it's worse when they are wearing dark glasses and have streamers in their antlers because then you know they were enjoying themselves at a party when they were shot." Ellen DeGeneres
Just a little light humor.
Derrick
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I enjoy Ellen. I do not always agree with her, yet appreciate her honesty and wonderful humor. She reminds me of my very dear friend, Dolores. Dolores was my very closest friend, a very fine christian, and a lesbian who directed me to The Lord in 1979. I will always support Dolores to my death.
Now, this is a very touchy and emotional issue. And I am sure that your friend was a nice woman.
However, I must ask where does the Bible draw the line with someone who is in open rebellion to God and their true standing with the holy God?
Here is an exerp of an article http://www.equip.org/free/DG238.htm from Joe Dallas, a fromer homosexual and founder of a ministry geared toward helping others leave the gay lifestyle.
"Does God’s presence in our lives indicate His approval of our lifestyle? “I feel God’s presence in my life,” you’re likely to hear from someone aligned with the gay religious movement. “And at my church, people are born again, and God’s Spirit is manifest. How could that be if He disapproves of homosexuality?”
I can testify firsthand to the power of this line of reasoning. If, upon my first visit to a pro-gay congregation, I had encountered a Roman orgy in progress, it would have been easy to dismiss the very notion of “gay Christianity.” At the Metropolitan Community Church, however, I witnessed traditional hymns, sermons that were theologically conservative, and even an occasional altar call. Isn’t this evidence, I thought, that God sanctions homosexuality?
A cursory look at Paul’s first letter to the Corinthian church refutes this erroneous thinking. The Corinthians were carnal and full of divisions (1 Cor. 3:3-4), an incestuous relationship existed openly among them (1 Cor. 5:1-5), and drunkenness occurred during their communion celebrations (1 Cor. 11:21); yet God was present in their lives. At the very least, as born-again believers, they had the Spirit of God within them, however grieved the Holy Spirit may have been with their behavior.
Could God’s presence be construed to indicate His approval of their behavior? Hardly. Likewise, though our friends in pro-gay churches claim ongoing fellowship with Christ, their foundation is experiential, in contrast to the surer foundation Christ commended when warning against claiming a knowledge of Him apart from obedience to Him (Matt. 7:24-27).
All of this makes our encounters with those claiming to be gay and Christian reminiscent of an encounter between Jesus and a rich young ruler (Mark 10:17–23). Christ loved the young man and was acutely aware of the spiritual hunger posed in his question, “Good Master, what should I do to inherit eternal life?” Like our friends or loved ones in pro-gay churches, this young ruler obeyed many of the commandments, but something in his life — his riches, which he deemed invaluable — was holding him back. When Jesus put His finger on this one area, the ruler walked away, unwilling to relinquish and obey."
---I think to put anything in our life ahead of God, particularly something that the Bible refers to as an abomination, puts our spiritual condition into question and I think it is right (though difficult) for other believers to make a stand for the truth of Scripture and challenge them to change their lives and leave the homosexual lifestyle.
This is truly a difficult discussion, but I think the Bible is clear on the issue of homosexuality (or any kind of extra-marital realations) I will close with the following quote.
"The Bible states that we have all turned our backs on God and gone our own way. As Martin Luther once put it, we each "sin often and daily."
I don't think you can be a good Christian and a lesbian, but I also don't think you can be a good Christian and a drunkard, a fornicator, etc...When the Bible says folks who are these things have their place in the lake of fire, I say we ought to run from them. Regardless of how genuine, nice, friendly and loving a person is. Frankly, many atheists, homosexuals and people who claim to be Christians are nice, but unsaved.
Now, it is entirely possible that your friend was saved from the wrath of God, but that is truly up to God and His mercy, just as it is with me because it is only through Him and His grace for a sinner like me that I may be saved.
Derrick
Here lies the conflict of definition. Like an alcoholic who no longer drinks, or a fornicator who no longer fornicates, Dolores was a lesbian who no longer practiced lesbianism in ways of the flesh. She and a fellow named Bob Baker were the two people who witnessed daily to me about The Lord. Bob was a chain smoker who didn't take very good care of his temple. Dolores was very honest with me. We had many discussions about her past, her life, and what The Lord demands from we as christians. She and Penny were in love. Love is a good thing. Theye were the kindest, sweetest people you can imagine. They were also christians, saved just a few years earlier. By many at FMC where we worked, Dolores and Penny were many times isolated by others, scorned, laughed at, and even hated. Many of these people were christians. Although Dolores and Penny lived together, their love was that of emotional bond after accepting The Lord. I don't know where the line is drawn with how The Lord appeals to such fine christians who happen to have the bond of love. I supported them. I stood up for them. I suppose one had to be there to truly understand the situation. These were two of the finest christians I have ever known.
The Beatles had it wrong when they sang, "All You Need Is Love". And whether they were "in love" does not matter. There are plenty of counter examples where "they were in love" falls flat.
If a man loves more than one woman (Jesus said that even if you look at a woman with lust in your heart, you have committed adultery-regardless of whether a physical relationship takes place).
A father is "in love" with his daughter. A brother is "in love" with his sister. A man is "in love" with his pet. Love does not make these relationships right. Being nice does not make these relationships right. I'm sorry.
If they were friends and loved each other, that's different. If they were once lesbian lovers and are abstaining, but are tempting each other by staying in that situation, that's just unwise. It's like an alcoholic who tests himself by having just one drink-will he lose his salvation, no, but that is a dumb thing to do.
As a teacher (particularly of the Bible), I cannot always speak easily about specific instances. That seems to be where God's grace comes in.
However, and here is my main point and I will drop it for now since we have gone down this road before.
I cannot teach whatever I want. Do I like saying Jesus is the only way? No. But He is or at the least the Bible teaches this. Do I like telling loving people that homosexuality is an abomination and punishable, by God, with an eternity in the lake of fire? No way. But the Bible seems to teach this. I could be wrong, but it would be up to the opposition to offer an argument that the Bible teaches homosexuality is ok.
But I cannot ignore the clear teaching of passages like this-1 Cor 6:9,10 says
"What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, 10 nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God’s kingdom. 11 And yet that is what
some of YOU were. But YOU have been washed clean, but YOU have been sanctified, but YOU have been declared righteous in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God.
It is possible, even probable, that your friend is in heaven, but it is not because she was nice-nice doesn't cut it, nor is it because of her love-love is not all you need[not our love to be sure]. It would be because of the grace of God, just like in my life.
The hope lies in our turning from our sin and into the arms of the Savior.
My point is that she was a fine christian. I am quite clear on scripture and where to find such scriptures on homosexual issues. The last years of Dolores were those of great pain. She lost limbs, one at a time, due to severe diabetes. I spoke to her frequently. We spoke of The Lord, his grace, forgiveness, and reward. She was not a practicing homosexual of the flesh. How sad it would be for each of us that at some time lust in our hearts prevented us from entering the kingdom of heaven. Former President Jimmy Carter explained in an outstanding interview how he over his life had lusted in his heart many times. " Lust" does not apply only to sexual natures. Lust can manifest itself in many ways of the flesh. Dolores gave her life to The Lord.The very last time we spoke, her last words to me were to stay faithful the The Lord and be his humble servant. " Nice-Nice" and "Love-Love" had nothing to do with her going home to The Lord, but those were certainly wonderful qualities that many a christian could learn from. I will see her in our reward some day.
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