Here's a post on Postmodernism by Pastor Gary
Arrogant Presumption
There are those among us that consider themselves to be a bit more sophisticated, and educated, possessing a wisdom that allows them to jettison all conventionalism. They are the post modernists. Postmodernity resists being defined. They are too complex to be understood and too fluid to be nailed down. Post modernists take great pride in being a bewildering profusion of responses to the contradictions, limitations, and foundations of the generations that have come before them. They question all societal norms, authority structures, and especially religion. Postmodernity believes in a plural, contextual, and open ended character of meaning. (meaning is what you make it-the author's purpose is hardly considered- D) Reason, absolutes, life experience, and religion are abandoned as nothing more than subterfuges for wielding power over others. (I might add that many postmodernists elevate life experience over most everything else-D) Postmodernists are the "out-of-the-box" thinkers. They consider themselves to be intellectually honest, and spiritually enlightened. Free from the restrictions of outmoded conventionalism, they see themselves as the saviors of our modern age.
Postmodernists, however, are not as modern as they suppose. They are not the first to believe that they, and only they, know what is right. In Judges 21:25 it states, "In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did what was right in his own eyes" (N.K.J.V.). In Jeremiah 8:6 we read, "No man repented of his wickedness, saying, 'What have I done?' Everyone turned to his own course, as the horse rushes into the battle" (N.K.J.V.). Proverbs 12:15 gives this warning, "The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but he who heeds counsel is wise" (N.K.J.V.). Proverbs 28:26 asserts, "He who trusts in his own heart is a fool, but whoever walks wisely will be delivered" (N.K.J.V.).(I love the Proverbs- D)
Proverbs 30:12-13 seems to speak prophetically regarding postmodernism when it says, "There is a generation that is pure in its own eyes, yet is not washed from its filthiness. There is a generation-oh, how lofty are their eyes! And their eyelids are lifted up" (N.K.J.V.).
Postmodernism is nothing more than repackaged irresponsible, permissive, secularist idolatry. Man has always wanted to be his own god. One can attach all the lofty, politically correct, morally superior, and intellectually sophisticated labels he desires, the end result is still the same: It is a desperate attempt to dismiss the one true God. Just because one believes there are no absolutes does not change the fact that absolutes exist. (Some would even say that they are sure that none exist, though they cannot be absolutely sure- D) There is a God and you are not Him. The Bible promises that one day everyone will have an opportunity to face God. If we face Him on His terms that will be a great day. If we face Him on our terms, that will be a terrible day. The only Savior for the world and our times is Jesus Christ. Postmodernists need to wake from their arrogant, presumptuous, stupor of self-importance. There is nothing new under the sun (Ecclesiastes 1:9). The sin of wanting to be one's own god is as old as the garden of Eden. Respectable rebellion, is still rebellion. A humble submission to the rule of God in one's life is the only way to enter the kingdom of God. God loves you, but He will not be summarily dismissed. Like it or not, the arrogant presumption of the postmodernist will not excuse him from the day of judgment.
Pastor Gary
Thanks Gary. Thoughts anyone? Agree or disagree?
Derrick
27 comments:
testing...
Telling a person or group of people that they, " need to wake from their arrogant, presumptuous, stupor of self-importance"? I don't know, sounds preety rough and judgemental to me. I would rather stick to Scriptural Doctrine as a witness.
Might want to adjust your Blog calendar. It shows my previous post at 12/2/07. I'm close enough to 53 years old as it is. :-)
The calender was set to European time where the month and day are switched. :-)
You said: " I don't know, sounds preety rough and judgemental to me. I would rather stick to Scriptural Doctrine as a witness."
One question for now:
1) What do you mean by Scritural Doctrine? Of what?
Derrick
By not casting out insulting words at a person or persons, it makes more sense to me to use Scriptural words and phrases ( even quoted Scripture ) to assist in the gaining of souls to Jesus Christ. 1 Timothy 6, 11-12, discuss ..." love, patience, meekness." Also, that ...." hast professed a good profession before many witnesses." I don't believe in my heart that calling out anyone as arrogant, presumptuous, in a stupor on self-indulgence, is a good witness. We, as Christians, have a better foundation than that. It is those who create words of these kinds that we are trying to bring to The Lord. We, as Christians, should not be blasting entire populations by insulting them.It is not by these ways that we voice The Word of The Lord. At least, this is how I am feeling about it. The Jews faced similar words during their horrid time during World War Two. Insulting and demeaning things were said about them in an effort to convince a population. Never, ever, do insulting and belittling words make a case for anything. Christians preach Gospel, Scripture, The Word of God. It is the words of man that we must keep in check.
Russ,
Now I can truly appreciate what you are trying to say and I agree with you that in many situations, there is reason to follow your advice. It is truly important for us to be loving, patient, kind, repectful and the like.
That said, I think sometimes things need to be plainly stated and call a spade a spade which I think is what Gary was trying to do. We must take Scripture as a whole and there are many times where the men of God told the people the "bad news".
In our society, we don't like bad news, but the prophets, disciples and others were not afraid to tell people they were whining, selfish, arrogant, lovers of sin (and self), unclean, stupid (if they didn't like correction), vile, white-washed tombs, haters of God, etc...
Here are a few verses (from NIV)that illustrate my point. I used a concordinance to find words like Gary used (subbing selfish for self-importance). I will only include portions for the sake of brevity. Check the full verse for context to make sure I am fairly representing the author's intent.
1 Sam 2:3 "Do not...let your mouth speak such arrogance."
Psa. 5:5- the arrogant cannot stand in your presence..."
Psa. 119:78- "May the arrogant be put to shame..."
Prov. 8:13, 17:1, 21:24
18:1 "An unfriendly man pursues selfish ends; he defies all sound judgement."
Here is one from Jesus speaking to the evil that comes from a man's heart. Mark 7:20-23, "He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him unclean. For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and make a man unclean."
So, it seems that in some cases, it is acceptable to call people these things and not be worse off than the person one is referring to. ie...the sin of "judging" as worse than the sin of whatever another is guilty of.
Here is a list of others that point out the sin of the sinful.
Rom 1:30 (a real good one), 2:8,11:20, 1 Cor 13:5 "Love...is not self-seeking..." 2 Cor. 12:20, Gal. 5:20, Phil 2:3
Too many times, folks, in this postmodern society, it is worse to be judgemental than anything else. Anything. The problem is that those that think it is wrong to be judgemental are, in fact, judging the person "being judgemental". There is no way around it. The thing is, Christianity allows for it.
Postmodernism and its cousin relativism wants us to think they are not being judgemental which they are, but their wordlview does not allow for it.
The Bible is full of examples of the prohphets, disciples, apostles, etc, being used by God to tell us how to live our lives, and how not to live our lives. And being superficially judgemental is how we are not to, but being righteously judgemental/discerning is allowed, at least in many cases.
The truth is not nice. It does not always make me feel good. But, once embraced, it will set you free. But you have to have bad news first before the good news makes any sense. We have to know how depraved we are to truly appreciate the price Christ paid for us. And passionately defending the truth is one way.
Derrick
Well put, dear. :-). I couldn't agree more.
I question the wisdom of jumping into the fray, particularly in light of the fact that Derrick answered Russ so competently. I would, however, like to add that it is often more comfortable to attack a messenger and dismiss him than deal with the issue. It is judgmental of Russ, not knowing me from Adam, to assume that my motivation is to be judgmental. Romans 2:1 In passing judgment on me, Russ is condemning himself. The issue isn’t Me, Russ, Derrick…. There is a whole generation feeling justified in their rebellion against God. If someone doesn’t challenge their thinking, they could be condemned to an eternity apart from Him. There is a place and a time for sweetness, but when someone has their head in the oven, you pull them out and then try to reason with them. Reasoning with them as they are being gassed to death is not compassionate.
Did I judge a person? No, I did not. I chose the words used that sounded to be judgemental. " Russ is condeming himself"? No, that doesn't sound judgmental at all either? I didn't "attack" anybody. I did not use anyones name in my response. I was the one who was attacked by name, Gary.
I think it probably best that we agree to disagree on this matter, both being believers in The Lord and looking toward salvation towards all. My respects to you with all sincerity.
"The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but he who heeds counsel is wise" (N.K.J.V.). "- This is a judgement.
"The wages of sin is death". Romans 6:23- This is a judgement.
"Postmodernists need to wake from their arrogant, presumptuous, stupor of self-importance. " - This is a judgement.
"Post modernists take great pride in being a bewildering profusion of responses to the contradictions, limitations, and foundations of the generations that have come before them. " This is a judgement.
"sounds pretty rough and judgemental to me" --This is a judgement.
"Might want to adjust your Blog calender"- This is a judgement.
"I don't believe in my heart that calling out anyone as arrogant, presumptuous, in a stupor on self-indulgence, is a good witness. "- This is a judgement.
"We, as Christians, should not be blasting entire populations by insulting them."- This is a judgement.
Derrick posting all these to make a point. This is a judgement.
The point is so what? Anytime we use moral language- including but certainly not limited to, ought and should..etc, we are making a judgement.
The thing is that the Christian worldview thinks that this is ok, at times. And I think these are acceptable uses. The judgements may be wrong (that hasn't been demonstrated), but they are not wrong becaue they are judgements. The Bible is clear on this as we take the whole of Scripture.
The postmodernist and relativistic worldview says all judging is wrong. Their view and anyone who holds it is believing a self-defeating, suicidal (idea-wise) and as Gary put it is guilty of the same thing that is being condemned. It is like saying, "I cannot write a word of English", or "there is no truth" (are you sure?)
The view cannot support itself. Check out Greg Koukl's book on Relativism:Feet Firmly Planted in Air or any of his article on the Suicide Tactic or relativism at http://www.str.org
If one thinks it is wrong to judge, they have no feet to stand on when telling me I am wrong for doing so.
It is also important when reading Scripture to look for words that are equivocal-have two possible meanings. And perhaps this is where the confusion is. I have made this point in the past so I will stop for now.
Derrick
Saying that,"Russ is condemning himself" is ok then. OK, I understand.
I would also kindly ask that comments made about my comments relate to my comments only, and not my person.
Perhaps you can give an example where that was done inappropriately.
Derrick
" Russ is condemning himself". I added no names to my response comments. I only responded to words of comments, not attaching people or defamatory comments to them.
Also, I have never in my entire Christian life been confronted by a Pastor insuch a way. I respect Gary, very much. Derrick, you know I am needing a Pastor and home church right now. This is hurtful to me. Finally, I have a place to voice my opinion and I'm told that I am condemning myself. I don't agree, and I really need a loving Pastor. I honestly do not know what to do. Am I that messed up? Is my opinion that far off? I'm a Christian man without a home church. I try. I try so very hard. I did meet Pastor Gary, a few years ago. He has an AWESOME Church. I feel dirty that I disgree with him and that I disagreed with his message as of late. This old dude here has been slammed with temptations of all sorts since redicating himself to The Lord. I don't take the bait on any of them. Thus, I am doing the right thing. Problem is, I am a writer, a writer by nature and a writer by Union Negotiations these days. I write what is right and fair. I need some Pastor to understand me as I am, as I feel, and respect who I am. The Lord blessed me with an awesome base guitar natural gift, even with my cancerous situation in my hand coming back at full strength. Not sure? Look at my dang finger and thumb. I have dismissed any further treatment. The treatment was worse than the ailment. I apologize to Gary, very much. I am quite vocal about my feelings these days. I'm an honest guy. I certainly pray for a home church and Pastor that can feed our needs. My apology for again stepping on toes of wonderful people. I guess I'm just a loser.
Russ said...
" Russ is condemning himself". I added no names to my response comments. I only responded to words of comments, not attaching people or defamatory comments to them."
---With all due respect, I don't think this was done inappropriately since you were the initial poster who "judged" what Pastor Gary had said as judgemental and harsh.
Your response was not you just pondering hypothetically out of the blue, but rather a response to specific person's comments, this this case Pastor Gary.
This is the nature of this, and many other, blogs. Not all things lend themself to the hypothetical "one" person. Sometimes he, she or you is acceptable.
And considering the context of the Romans 2 passage and the self-refuting nature of your comments, I think it is fair to say by passing judgement you were condeming yourself. This is basically what I said 3 posts later. There is no mystery who the comments are responding to.
If you take what Pastor Gary is saying the wrong way; that you are condemned, in a salvation sense, I think the context bears that this is not what he was referring to.
If it is taken in the context of the fact that you were making a judgement, whether you think you were or not, then it seems appropriate. And if you recall my previous longer post, the Biblical view, I think, holds up to folks passing judgement at times.
The only way to avoid that is to always agree with everyone all the time.
I may be mistaken that it was inappropriate, and I am sorry if your feelings were hurt. Perhaps Pastor Gary will have some more to add.
Sincerely,
Derrick
For the record: I do not post Pastor Gary's articles because I would agree with everything in it. I don't have to agree with him on everything to learn from him.
I can question his beliefs and thoughts and although he is a shepherd of a church, he is not above error (and he would be the first to admit).
To be honest, I don't agree with him on everything theologically. I am certain of it. I do probably on the main things and there is charity for the nonessentials.
This blog is an iron sharpening iron situation. I learn from him, perhaps he would learn from me. I am forming some of my position on issues still. I need to test if they are worth holding on to. If not I need to refine my arguments better or get rid of them.
I would hope the same would be true for anyone who peeks in. If your, my (or anyone's) view is worth its salt, it will hold up under scrutiny. If it is not, it needs to tossed to the side or at the very least reconsidered.
If someone has a better reason for something, I am likely to listen to it; if I cannot refute it, I must be changed by it. This is the nature of my own search for truth. I cannot settle for anything less and I will challenge anyone who comes here to do the same because I think it is THAT important.
Derrick
In as much, I expect that Christians do not call me bt names that are disgusting. I expect Christians to honor my name by not defaming it. My comments are always open to discussion and interpretation. MY NAME IS NOT. No opinion on this or any other venue is open to defamation of my character. NOBODY is open to calling me any disgusting names. Saying that I "condemned myself" has not yet even been addressed by my respone to such. I find that a shame. I HAVE NOT condemned myself, and find that statement disgusting. How dare anyone say such things to me. I might hold a better Christian life than those who judge me.
This one-sided discussion is done with me. I have only one wife, have prayed the prayer as such, and lived accordingly. These "multiple prayers" of starting over are fine for others, but not for me. I started with one wife, one prayer, and one example. I made my statement with God one time, and stuck with it, regardless of life's "stuff". How DARE anyone jack me up on that! I'm proud. Gary, thank you for addressing me to prayer about this. God gave me a vision. I don't need to apologize! God spoke to me. I am a person of success! I have been with one woman for 32 years, my children are wonderful, and I am truly blessed by my decisions. I shall retire from full time work since age 14 and maybe become a Pastor. What does The Bible say about a wife and family? Hey, who can match what I have done in that venue? So, DO NOT JUDGE ME. I'm scriptural in what The Bible says to be from Old Testament to New. I'm on it.
It came to me in a word of knowledge that I should give up something I enjoy. In as much, a word of knowledge should not be ignored. My perception of writing does not match how others read what I wrote. This word of knowledge told me that the word "retire" meant retire from writing. The term "Pastor" is for those called to that calling. I have not been called. I will heed this word and retire from writing in formats across the board. I had a good run with this pleasure and have nothing to complain about. It was nice to recieve a word of knowledge in a true prayer answer. Reading and learning is also a passion for me.I will direct myself in that direction. Letter to the editor, all, I shall be a part in reception mode from now on. Keep up ths wonderful Blog. It'sChristian values are something the written world neds more of.
Blessings!
I am going to respond to some of what has been going on in the last few posts. I am going to be straight with this so I am not misunderstood. After the general comments, I will use the names and comments of those involved in order to try to accurately represent what I want to express.
In most of the emailing world, it is widely understood and accepted that anytime someone uses ALL CAPS, they are, in essence, yelling or at least very excited.
Just like yelling, or raising your voice in anger is not acceptable behavior in most types of conversation (even debates). I respectfully ask that when people post, they are respectful in not "cyber yelling". There may be other forums where this may be acceptable. Please, not here.
Moving on: I do not think Pastor Gary needs to respond in the matter of calling Russ names. I think I made it clear by looking at the verse, in context, looking at discussion, in context and I believe I adequately addressed the issue.
I do not believe Pastor Gary's comments, in context, puts Russ's eternal salvation in question, nor does it defame his name, nor does it seem like name-calling. (I may be wrong) There were judgements all around; the question is, 'are they justified?' This, I am sure, will have to be something we agree to disagree on.
I think Russ overreacted to the comment about condemning himself and it would be beneficial to realize that some words have multiple meanings based on the context.
Russ said,
"Saying that I "condemned myself" has not yet even been addressed by my respone to such. I find that a shame."
---I disagree. I have dealt with this earlier by looking at the context. In addition, just two hours earlier, you said, "Saying that,"Russ is condemning himself" is ok then. OK, I understand."
The issue should have been dropped.
Russ said, "I might hold a better Christian life than those who judge me."
----How is this not being judgemental? This, I think, is the use of the word "judgemental" that needs to be avoided.
"So, DO NOT JUDGE ME. I'm scriptural in what The Bible says to be from Old Testament to New. I'm on it."
---I think you are misapplying this phrase and we've discussed this on this blog before.
Russ said...
"My perception of writing does not match how others read what I wrote."
---That clarity, in writing, comes with practice. And it comes with being able to admit, "hey that's not what I wrote, here's what I meant."
I say and write things often that I have to go back and say, "that's not quite what I meant" or "that didn't come out like I meant it in my head...Let me rephrase that."
Russ said, "I had a good run with this pleasure and have nothing to complain about... Keep up ths wonderful Blog. It'sChristian values are something the written world neds more of."
----Thank you. I hope that as you refine your skills, you come back and test them out. It is part of the process.
If I have misrepresented any view, in context, please correct me. I may be wrong in the way I understand certain things and because of the open nature of this blog, I am open to correction.
Sincerely,
Derrick
Please leave any direction to my name absent from any future posts.
Better listen to Russ, He is not a part of your cult.
Rough on Russ! I would write off this loser. You ARE NOT the loser here. Did I USE CAPS? SO SORRY>
Russ said, "Please leave any direction to my name absent from any future posts.".
I cannot make that promise if you ever post again using your name, since when you sign in, it says, "Russ said". It helps clarify whose words, I am responding to. This is true whether I am critiquing someone's views or agreeing with them.
If I am just musing in my own brain, I don't need to use names. When I am responding to a real person and their views, I will use their names.
The only way I see around this is posting anonymously, or not posting at all. Though posting anonymously seems to be kind of letting folks know that I do not need to take their views seriously.
1st anonymous, I was not aware I was a part of a cult. Perhaps you could give some reasons why you believe that.
2nd anonymous, Using all caps randomly is one thing. Context shows, it seems, that the poster's tone was more hostile. So, apology accepted. :-)
Derrick
(response did not post)2nd try....
I find the two posts from yesterday's anonymous entries disgusting. The only "cult" here is in the evil nature of the unsigned posts. I find it possible that someone is trying to drive a wedge, or further the previous discussion in an unkind way. This unsigned writing is a testament that even though the author's of posts on this subject disgree, at least we are believers of identity and creators of our work. That, unsigned blog poster, is character. Your trick or whatever it was will not work in the nature of this class act Blog. My inserted name did not work either. What you did was bond the previous signed writers into a closer truth as to what evel in the world is at hand. Instead of blasting you, I thank you.
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