Monday, September 07, 2009

Does God Want All to be Saved

Depends on what you mean by desire. Greg Koukl of Stand to Reason does a good job giving this question. Even if you are not of the Reformed view, it is a quick explanation of the the wills of God, His Sovereign will and His Moral will.

Check out this quick video for more.

Does God Want All to be Saved

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9 comments:

Kwame E. said...

I'm not a fan of videos because they take too long to download. Could you summarize what Koukl had to say?

D.B. said...

Sorry it took a while to get back to you. Apparantly my link doesn't work for the video anyway, since I was trying to watch it again to refresh my mind.

I don't recall all of it, but the part about God's moral will vs. his sovereign will has been dealt with in Greg's Decision Making and the Will of God material.

Basically, that talks about how certain things God desires will get done no matter what. That is, he does what he wants, whenever, using whomever, to acomplish whatever he want. This is his sovereign will.

Other things, like, the passage of Scripture that says God wants all men to be saved. Well, obviously that does not happen. this would be his moral will.

This is also where the idea of free will comes in, which makes my mind hurt sometimes. :-) Hope that helps.

Kwame E. said...

So in other words, Koukl is like most other Christians and behind the philosophical curve.

The "moral/permissive will" vs. "sovereign/decretive will" distinction is crude, clumsy, and I would think expendable. What you're really talking about is a distinction between intention and will.

You're at work. You hate it there. You want to go home; but it's just 12 o' clock. You stay there anyway until 5:00 when you normally clock out. Why? Because even though you want to go home, you've no intention of going home right way since you want to keep your job.

But then the clock strikes five, and you want to go home. So you go home. But you don't accidentally end up going home; you have the intent of going home, and this drives you to go home: you intentionally/purposely go home, which is what you wanted all along.

I think it would be much more helpful in the future maybe if folks would say, "Look, God wants to save everyone (in the Arminian sense), but he doesn't do this because he also does not intend to do so." OTOH, those God intends to save--make no mistake about it--he will save.

D.B. said...

You: "The "moral/permissive will" vs. "sovereign/decretive will" distinction is crude, clumsy, and I would think expendable. What you're really talking about is a distinction between intention and will."

He may be behind, but I think he does go into more detail explaining these. One reason I think he sticks to the use of 2 "wills" is that the language in the Bible uses wills. I am sure things change if you look at original lang. and context, but I can't say for sure.

Or perhaps, He would hope they would be saved, but He knows they won't, not just by virtue of His all-knowing-ness (omni something :-) ) , plus from a casual observation- not everyone is seeking him., nor does it seem they ever will kind of thing.

I know Koukl's argument is a little more sophisticated than I gave, though it is possible he has not worked it completely through. You'd have to go and listen to the Decision Making and the Will of God stuff.

Hope you're well.
D.

Kwame E. said...

<<He may be behind, but I think he does go into more detail explaining these. One reason I think he sticks to the use of 2 "wills" is that the language in the Bible uses wills. I am sure things change if you look at original lang. and context, but I can't say for sure.>>

Well, it's fine to spend your time trying to describe and to come up with handy terminology to describe different sorts of will or volition. The point is pretty much that one can want some outcome and also do nothing to bring it about and that this is best understood or appreciated by analogy of behavior that we all experience and recognize.

The classic Arminian objection is more or less, "Such and such a verse says 'God wants everyone to be saved,' and that means Christ died for every last sinner"; and the assumption is that if someone wants something then he attempts to bring it about by what he believes to be sufficient means of doing so. However, this assumption does carry counter-examples, from cases of wanting to leave the workplace early to cases of wanting to ask someone out on a date without having the courage to do so. So the assumption is false. Sometimes a person's will corresponds with his attempting to bring about an outcome by what he believes to be suffient means; and sometimes it does not. The matter is best understood this way, because the langauge that the people tend to use in describing different sorts of the divine will is clumsy and tends not to aptly describe the differences in all cases or Scriptures.

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<<Or perhaps, He would hope they would be saved, but He knows they won't, not just by virtue of His all-knowing-ness (omni something :-) ) , plus from a casual observation- not everyone is seeking him., nor does it seem they ever will kind of thing.>>

Or could it be that God knows that the outcome of his letting some people perish would be better than his saving all persons, hence his not having the purpose or intention to save everyone even if He wants them to be saved? After all, the outcome of my staying at work till 5 o'clock like I'm supposed to is better than leaving early, and ending up unemployed the next day.

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<<Hope you're well.>>

Yeah, doing well and due for an early death at the same time. I plan to use this to my advantage though.

D.B. said...

The classic Arminian objection is more or less, "Such and such a verse says 'God wants everyone to be saved,' and that means Christ died for every last sinner"; and the assumption is that if someone wants something then he attempts to bring it about by what he believes to be sufficient means of doing so. However, this assumption does carry counter-examples, from cases of wanting to leave the workplace early to cases of wanting to ask someone out on a date without having the courage to do so. So the assumption is false. Sometimes a person's will corresponds with his attempting to bring about an outcome by what he believes to be suffient means; and sometimes it does not. The matter is best understood this way, because the langauge that the people tend to use in describing different sorts of the divine will is clumsy and tends not to aptly describe the differences in all cases or Scriptures.
---That may be true, but I know on this issue, it is what works for my mind right now. :-) I can only briefly go into any of the ramifications of God's 2 wills or what you have described. How much does God get involved; where does free will on our part come in...etc. LOL I can only handle so much, my friend. This one is a tough one for me.
Or could it be that God knows that the outcome of his letting some people perish would be better than his saving all persons, hence his not having the purpose or intention to save everyone even if He wants them to be saved? After all, the outcome of my staying at work till 5 o'clock like I'm supposed to is better than leaving early, and ending up unemployed the next day.
---That makes sense. Hey, if God is supernaturally electing some folks and there seems to be less and less I actually do to secure my salvation, how can I know I am one of his elect? Do I stumble (in sin)because I am not one of his elect? Or because I am an imperfect human pretending to be elect to the best that I know how?
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Yeah, doing well and due for an early death at the same time. I plan to use this to my advantage though.
Why is that?
D.

(Sorry I had trouble commenting yesterday)

Kwame E. said...

<<---That may be true, but I know on this issue, it is what works for my mind right now. :-)>>

That is the problem with the world today: "...But I know on this issue, it is what works for my mind right now."

This is precisely how, for example, naive and relatively ignorant Christians with a prior commitment to baptismal regeneration can produce laughable, ridiculous explanations of Scriptures which contradict this view, while these same people actually believe what they are saying!!!...and vice versa!

The mindset and attitude which pragmatically produces all sorts of pseudo-explanations in defense of ideas which he is inclined to believe, and which no one would objectively buy for one second, is one which says "...But I know on this issue, it is what works for my mind right now."

So if whatever you or anyone else happens to believe is true, then may it rest with that--"What I believe is true, and if that contradicts what you're saying, then sorry bud, I just don't agree." Let it rest with that and nothing less.

*******

<< I can only briefly go into any of the ramifications of God's 2 wills or what you have described. How much does God get involved; where does free will on our part come in...etc. LOL I can only handle so much, my friend. This one is a tough one for me.>>

A number of thoughts come to mind:

1. "Free will"? How are you defining the term in this case? The term can have a multitude of different meanings.

2. How much does God get involved? There's plenty of involvement. And there is every apperance that there is also a diversity of means of involvement, from direct means, to indirect means, permission of natural law's and inherent properties of various objects' taking their natural course of action, to active and positive determination of outcomes. Shall I begin to list some Scriptures which demonstrate this?

3. Me, I say: Who cares about free will? There's no shortage of evidence in the pages of the Bible that God is involved with the universe to a degree which no Arminian qua Arminian could ever be ultimately happy or satisfied with one way or another.

*******

<<---That makes sense. Hey, if God is supernaturally electing some folks and there seems to be less and less I actually do to secure my salvation, how can I know I am one of his elect? Do I stumble (in sin)because I am not one of his elect? Or because I am an imperfect human pretending to be elect to the best that I know how?>>

1. Why would you do anything to secure salvation you know you've already been granted?

2. OTOH, if you're talking about particular salvation (and you know that the lexeme "save" does not refer to just one sort of action in the Bible) yet to be obtained, then look: regardless of how much work you're doing now to obtain this salvation, if you really must work according to the Scriptures, then the outcome doesn't depend on you. God makes sure the work gets done, or that you do the work. Again, there is no need for worry or alarm here, unless you really are an unrepentant sinner who was never converted.

3. Plenty of examples in the New Testament of Christians who sinned. If you sin, that is not necessarily a sign that you have not been chosen by God.

*******

<<--------------
Yeah, doing well and due for an early death at the same time. I plan to use this to my advantage though.
Why is that?>>

Because one is better off with sleep and with a life which is not stressful.

P.S. I am disappointed because Blogger did not allow the <u> tag.

D.B. said...

This is precisely how, for example, naive and relatively ignorant Christians with a prior commitment to baptismal regeneration can produce laughable, ridiculous explanations of Scriptures which contradict this view, while these same people actually believe what they are saying!!!...and vice versa!

---Are you comparing me with them? At this time, I am satisfied with the explanation of two wills. Does it go far enough? Obviously not, but it serves a purpose and even a stepping stone to the next level. It is not w/o it's problems, perhaps, but I imagine the 3 CD set goes into more detail than a quick 2 minute video.

"So if whatever you or anyone else happens to believe is true, then may it rest with that--"What I believe is true, and if that contradicts what you're saying, then sorry bud, I just don't agree." Let it rest with that and nothing less.

---And, it seems, that this is akin to the agreeing to disagree. Which seems a polite way to end a conversation, at times.

"A number of thoughts come to mind:

1. "Free will"? How are you defining the term in this case? The term can have a multitude of different meanings.

---Just a real basic "I make this decision, on my own." This is more of a personal thing I am working through so I am not intending to go super deep. Not at this time, anyway.

2. How much does God get involved? There's plenty of involvement. And there is every apperance that there is also a diversity of means of involvement, from direct means, to indirect means, permission of natural law's and inherent properties of various objects' taking their natural course of action, to active and positive determination of outcomes. Shall I begin to list some Scriptures which demonstrate this?

---No need.

3. Me, I say: Who cares about free will? There's no shortage of evidence in the pages of the Bible that God is involved with the universe to a degree which no Arminian qua Arminian could ever be ultimately happy or satisfied with one way or another.

---And that is from where I am coming. Grew up in Assembly of God & 4 Square. My only Reformed-type teaching has been from Greg, and recently my own pastor. My temptation is that I swing from one extreme to another. I don't want that. From I could lose my salvation if I don't do thus and such to God does everything.

I don't want to swing too much into a strict determinism. I just think for years, His sovereignty has not always been at the forefront. Not in a Calvinist sense (from what little I know)

You: 1. Why would you do anything to secure salvation you know you've already been granted?

See above. :-)

2. OTOH, if you're talking about particular salvation (and you know that the lexeme "save" does not refer to just one sort of action in the Bible) yet to be obtained, then look: regardless of how much work you're doing now to obtain this salvation, if you really must work according to the Scriptures, then the outcome doesn't depend on you. God makes sure the work gets done, or that you do the work. Again, there is no need for worry or alarm here, unless you really are an unrepentant sinner who was never converted.

---I'm pretty sure I'm not unrepentant. I guess part of the difficulty (or mystery-it seems kind of like the Trinity; easy to understand on one hand, quite unfathonable on the other) is reconciling the idea that God saves me because he wanted me to be saved and put in me the desire to be saved and/or want to follow him. And through that, I somehow freely choose him. lol. Messes with my head.

D.

Kwame E. said...

<<---Are you comparing me with them?>>

With both them and the people who disagree with them? Yes, I am.

Besides that, I don't feel too bad about making comparisions between any type of two objects or entities because I'm not someone who is shackled by pop philosophy. (There are properties or qualities shared by all objects and entities, good and bad; and that just is a basis for comparison.)

*******

<<"A number of thoughts come to mind:

1. "Free will"? How are you defining the term in this case? The term can have a multitude of different meanings.

---Just a real basic "I make this decision, on my own." This is more of a personal thing I am working through so I am not intending to go super deep. Not at this time, anyway.>>

Never forget that there is a perfectly good reason that philosophers in the analytic tradition get super deep with the issues: they know that those who don't do this are bound to either: a) an endless cycle of espousal of four-term fallacies; or b) endless cycles of confusion precisely because some things cannot be properly understood before various specific nuances and facts are fleshed out.

"On my own" you said. Even that is an ambiguous phrase, I would think. For all I know you could be talking about doing something either without someone else's help, or without someone else's resistibly causing it, or without someone else's irresistibly causing it, etc. As you certainly know, the crude phrase "on my own" will certainly work for you for the time being, though ultimately you too will find that you are not immune from the need to go super deep, as libertarian philosophers and deterministic philosophers have all had to do.

*******

<<---And that is from where I am coming. Grew up in Assembly of God & 4 Square. My only Reformed-type teaching has been from Greg, and recently my own pastor. My temptation is that I swing from one extreme to another. I don't want that. From I could lose my salvation if I don't do thus and such to God does everything.>>

No one teaches and no one in position of authority believes that God does everything. God causes all things in one sense or another, but he does not do or perform all things.

Meanwhile, it seems to me that the Bible teaches that there is a particular salvation which is contingent upon one's own works even now. (In the first place, and as some of us take pains to mention, the Bible speaks of salvation "in three tenses.") Will God make sure that his people make the cut in the long run? Yes. But that still doesn't change the illustration that Dr. Fischer passed down to us one time: even if determinism is true, you still won't decide on a restaurant and go eat there before you decide on a restaurant and go there.

*******

<<---I'm pretty sure I'm not unrepentant. I guess part of the difficulty (or mystery-it seems kind of like the Trinity; easy to understand on one hand, quite unfathonable on the other) is reconciling the idea that God saves me because he wanted me to be saved and put in me the desire to be saved and/or want to follow him. And through that, I somehow freely choose him. lol. Messes with my head.>>

Myself, I'm someone who believes in providential workings through combinations of resistible force, irresistible force, inherent properties of natural laws given without particular regard for all its consequences, and direct divine foreknowledge/prescience which (as the phrase suggests) is had not through means but just known. Consequently, people end up doing things that they sometimes did not have to do and are either rewarded or judged accordingly.

But freedom remains a myth. Or rather, despite the reality of relativity of freedom from subject to subject and from object to object, no one is absolutely free.